Recordings & Info 51. Lizie Wan
CONTENTS:
1) Alternative Titles
2) Traditional Ballad Index
3) Folk Index
4) Child Collection Index
5) Excerpt from The British Traditional Ballad in North America by Tristram Coffin 1950, from the section A Critical Biographical Study of the Traditional Ballads of North America
6) Mainly Norfolk (lyrics and info)
ATTACHED PAGES: (see left hand column)
1) Roud Number 234: Lizie Wan (37 Listings)
Alternative Titles
Lizzie Wan
Lucy Wan
Lizie May
Fair Lucy
Traditional Ballad Index: Lizie Wan [Child 51]
DESCRIPTION: (Geordy) finds his sister (Lizie Wan) crying. When he asks why, he is told that she is pregnant by him. He kills her to hide his crime. He is revealed by the blood on his sword, and is forced away from home
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1776 (Herd)
KEYWORDS: incest murder pregnancy questions exile brother
FOUND IN: Britain(Scotland,England) US(Ap,NE,SE)
REFERENCES (12 citations):
Child 51, "Lizie Wan" (2 texts)
Bronson 51, "Lizie Wan" (7 versions plus the #10 text of "Edward," which is actually "Lizie Wan")
Lyle-Crawfurd1 46, "Rosianne" (1 text)
SharpAp 14 "Lizzie Wan" (1 text, 1 tune){Bronson's #2}
Flanders/Olney, pp. 143-145, "Fair Lucy" (1 text, 1 tune) {Bronson's #5b}
Flanders-Ancient1, pp. 332-338, "Lizie Wan" (2 texts, 2 tunes, which differ though both informants cited the same source) {A1=Bronson's #5b, A2=#4}
Leach, pp. 167-169, "Lizie Wan" (2 texts)
Friedman, p. 159, "Lizie Wan" (1 text)
PBB 38, "Lizie Wan" (1 text)
Niles 21, "Lizie Wan" (1 text, 1 tune)
Vaughan Williams/Lloyd, p. 65, "Lucy Wan" (1 text, 1 tune) {Bronson's #3}
DT 51, LIZIWAN1*
Roud #234
RECORDINGS:
Jeanie Robertson, "My Son David" (on LomaxCD1700)
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "Sheath and Knife" (plot)
cf. "The Bonnie Hind" [Child 50] (theme)
cf. "Edward" (lyrics)
ALTERNATE TITLES:
Lizie May
NOTES: John Jacob Niles claims that, in his experience, the only people willing to sing this song were men. He points out that Sharp's informant was a man; so was the singer who gave the song to Flanders. As usual, though, one must wonder about Niles's sources. In any case, Bronson lists four versions from women. - RBW
Niles may claim that the only informants willing to sing the song are men, but Vaughan Williams/Lloyd's version was collected from a Mrs. Dann of Cottenham, Cambs. Lloyd notes, however, that this was the only version of the ballad found in oral tradition in England, and that no new Scottish version has been reported since 1827. -PJS
On the scientific evidence that brothers and sisters raised apart are particularly likely to fall in love, and some further speculation as to why, see the notes to "Babylon, or, The Bonnie Banks o Fordie [Child 14]." - RBW
Folk Index: Lizie Wan [Ch 51/Sh 14]
Rt - Edward
Friedman, Albert B. (ed.) / Viking Book of Folk Ballads of the English-S, Viking, sof (1963/1957), p159 [1770s]
Leach, MacEdward / The Ballad Book, Harper & Row, Bk (1955), p167
Leach, MacEdward / The Ballad Book, Harper & Row, Bk (1955), p168
Carthy, Martin. Byker Hill, Topic 12TS 342, LP (1977/1967), trk# B.06 [1967] (Lucy Wan)
Cooper, Phil; & Margaret Nelson. Lady's Triumph, Cooper & Nelson PP8109, Cas (1990), trk# 11 (Lucy Wan)
Dann, Mrs.. Williams, R. Vaughan; & A. L. Lloyd (eds.) / Penguin Book of English Fol, Penguin, Sof (1959), p 65 [1910ca] (Lucy Wan)
Finley, Ben (Benjamin J.). Sharp & Karpeles / English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians, I, Oxford, Bk (1932/1917), p 89/# 14A [1917/08/10]
Griffin, Mrs. G. A.. Morris, Alton C. / Folksongs of Florida, Univ. Florida, Bk (1950), p257/#153 [1937/03/19]
Shute, Bill; and Lisa Null. Feathered Maiden and Other Ballads, Green Linnet SIF 1006, LP (1977), trk# A.05 (Lucy Wan)
West, Hedy. Ballads, Topic 12T 163, LP (1967), trk# B.01 (Lucy Wan)
Whippersnapper. Promises, Varrick VR 027, LP (1986), trk# B.05
Wyatt, Cluster. Niles, John Jacob / Ballad Book of John Jacob Niles, Bramhall House, Bk (1961), p117/N 21 [1933] (Lizzie May)
Child Ballad 051: Lizie Wan
Child No. --Artist --Title --Album --Year --Length --Have
051 Allison Gross Lizie Wan Black Ballads 2003 5:32 Yes
051 Andrew Cronshaw Lucy Wan Ochre 2004 3:01 Yes
051 Bill Shute & Lisa Null Lucy Wan The Feathered Maiden and Other Ballads 1977 3:22 Yes
051 Brian Peters Lucy Songs of Trial and Triumph 2008 5:26 Yes
051 Charlotte Greig Lucy Wan Night Visiting Songs 1999 No
051 Chris Sherburn & Denny Bartley Lucy Wan Lucy Wan 2009 3:10 Yes
051 Dave Burland Lizzie Wan Dave Burland 1972 5:19 Yes
051 Elmer George Fair Lucy The Library of Congress No
051 Ewan MacColl Lucy Wan [English] The Long Harvest, Vol. 8 - Some Traditional Ballads in Their English, Scots and North American Variants 1968 2:29 Yes
051 Frankie Armstrong Fair Lizzie 'Till the Grass O'ergrew the Corn - A Collection of Traditional Ballads 1996 5:07 Yes
051 George Elmer Fair Lucy (1) The Helen Hartness Flanders Collection No
051 George Elmer Fair Lucy (2) The Helen Hartness Flanders Collection No
051 Hedy West Lucy Wan Ballads 1967 2:02 Yes
051 Hedy West Lucy Wan Ballads & Songs from the Appalachians 2011 No
051 Jon Boden Lucy Wan A Folk Song a Day - July 2010 3:36 Yes
051 Kathryn Roberts & Sean Lakeman Rosie Ann 2. 2003 4:01 Yes
051 Jim Moray Lucy Wan Low Culture 2008 5:00 Yes
051 Jim Moray & Bubbz Lucy Wan Live at Cecil Sharp House, London 2009 5:05 Yes
051 Lester (Jack) Hoadley Fair Lucy The Helen Hartness Flanders Collection No
051 M.J. Harris & Martyn Bates Lucy Wan Murder Ballads (The Complete Collection) 1998 14:39 Yes
051 Mark Automaton Lizzie Wan The Book of Lies 2005 No
051 Martin Carthy & Dave Swarbrick Lucy Wan Byker Hill 1967 3:59 Yes
051 Martin Carthy & Dave Swarbrick Lucy Wan Skin and Bone 1992 4:18 Yes
051 Martin Carthy & Dave Swarbrick Lucy Wan The Carthy Chronicles 2001 4:18 Yes
051 Martin Carthy & Dave Swarbrick Lucy Wan Selections 2001 No
051 Martin Carthy & Dave Swarbrick Lucy Wan 100 Not Out - a Video Album Recorded Live in Concert 1991 4:03 Yes
051 Martin Simpson Lucy Wan Leaves of Life 1989 4:26 Yes
051 Mary Humphreys & Anahata Lucy Wan Fenlandia 2006 No
051 Mick Ryan & John Burge Lucy Wan Fair Was the City 1978 2:49 Yes
051 Mike Preston & Mike Fenton Lucy Wan As I Walked Out - English Folk Songs from the Southern Apalachians 2005 No
051 Mrs. Alice Sicily Fair Lucy The Helen Hartness Flanders Collection No
051 Mrs. G.A. Griffin Fair Lucy The Library of Congress No
051 Mrs. Myra Daniels Fair Lucy (1) The Helen Hartness Flanders Collection No
051 Mrs. Myra Daniels Fair Lucy (2) The Helen Hartness Flanders Collection No
051 Orion Rosie Anne Jack Orion 1988 4:36 Yes
051 Paul & Liz Davenport Lucy Wan Songbooks 2008 No
051 Peggy Seeger Fair Lucy [American] The Long Harvest, Vol. 8 - Some Traditional Ballads in Their English, Scots and North American Variants 1968 3:25 Yes
051 Pete Castle Rosie Ann False Waters 1995 7:28 Yes
051 Phil Cooper & Margaret Nelson Lucy Wan Lady's Triumph 1990 3:35 Yes
051 Phil Cooper, Margaret Nelson & Kate Early Lucy Wan Hearts Return 1999 3:46 Yes
051 Phil Cooper, Margaret Nelson & Kate Early Lucy Wan Oasis Acoustic: A Touch of the Tradition 2000 3:46 Yes
051 Raymond Crooke Lizzie May <website> 2007- 2:42 Yes
051 Scold's Bridle Lucy Wan Circumstances 2004 No
051 Spiers & Boden Lucy Wan Songs 2005 5:29 Yes
051 The London Critics Group Lucy Wan Living Folk 1970 1:56 Yes
051 The Pratie Heads Lucy Wan We Did It! Songs About People Behaving Badly 2010 No
051 Whippersnapper Lizzie Wan Promises 1985 5:44 Yes
051 Whippersnapper Lizzie Wan These Foolish Strings - Live 1989 No
051 You Are Wolf Lucy Wan Hunting Little Songs 2011 4:47 Yes
Excerpt from The British Traditional Ballad in North America
by Tristram Coffin 1950, from the section A Critical Biographical Study of the Traditional Ballads of North America
51. LJZIE WAN
Texts: BFSSNE, VII, 6 / Morris, F-S Fla, 390 / SharpK, Eng F-S So Aplcbns, I, 89 / SFLQ, VIII, 142.
Local Titles; Fair Lucy.
Story Types: A: Lucy is with child by a lover (that her plight is the result of incest is not clear). Her brother, James, kills her and takes her head to her mother. There follows a question and answer (see Edward) motif of the "what will you do when your father comes home?" sort. The brother, of course, says he will leave and never return.
Examples: SharpK.
B: Lucy is pregnant and her own brother is the lover. Her mother, sister, and brother each hear her crying, ask the cause, and are told the reason. The brother takes her to a wood and kills her. There is the Edward-ending.
Examples: BFSSNE, VII, 7 (I); SFLQ, VIII, 142.
Discussion: The story is not clear in the Type A version. The plight of Lucy, the brother's entrance, and the dialogue with the mother are all that remain. In the Type B texts, where the story is clearer, the trip to the wood is found, a feature not in Child.
It is certain that an interchange between this song and Edward took place sometime early in British tradition.
The song is rare in America, although there is a re-working of the story in The Forget-me-not Songster (Nafis & Cornish, N. Y., c. 1845), p. 247 called The Bloody Brother.
Mainly Norfolk: Lucy Wan / Lizie Wan / Fair Lizzie
[Roud 234; Child 51; Ballad Index C051; trad.]
This incest and murder ballad was collected by F.J. Child as #51 and was included by Ralph Vaughan Williams and A.L. Lloyd in their Penguin Book of English Folk Songs. Their source are Ella Bull and W. Percy Merrick who collected it in 1904 from Mrs Charlotte Dann of Cottenham, Cambridgeshire.
Martin Carthy learned Lucy Wan from A.L. Lloyd and sang it unaccompanied in 1967 on his and Dave Swarbrick's album Byker Hill; This was also reissued on their compilation album Selections. Carthy sings very similar words, but to a different tune, on his and Dave Swarbrick's 1992 album Skin and Bone; this track was also included on the 4CD anthology The Carthy Chronicles. They also played Lucy Wan on their 1992 video 100 Not Out.
Martin Carthy commented in the Byker Hill sleeve notes:
There is a rather dreamlike ballad called Two Brothers (Child 49) in which two start wrestling in play and one is accidentally stabbed by the other's dagger and dies. Earlier versions suggest that in fact the brothers were quarrelling over possession of a bit of land, but in earlier versions still the implication is that they were each jealous of their sister. The bloodstained killer is interrogated and at first makes evasive answers but finally confesses to the deed. In the ballad called Edward also the young man makes excuses about the bloodstains on his clothes but eventually admits to having killed his brother after an argument about the “breaking of a little bush that should have been a tree”—this was explained to Cecil Sharp as meaning the de-flowering of a girl. Lucy Wan is close to the form of the original story on which the two later ballads are based. It is a powerful reflection of the intuitive (or neurotic) horror of incest so persistent in the primitive mind. The dialogue form of the ballad is very ancient; likewise the curious rigid tune, in the Fa or Lydian mode. Possibly the tune came to us from Ireland where the Fa mode is more common than in England but in any case belongs to the general old European stock of melodies (although Fa is now very uncommon except in parts of Spain, one district in Slovakia, and some Cantons of Switzerland) and there is reason to believe that in former times it was the general peasant mode par excellence. A.L. Lloyd, from whom the song was learned, says that in the course of singing it over some thirty years he has emphasised the Lydian starkness of the tune and has also mildly adapted the original (and somewhat scrappy) text.
and on Skin and Bone:
Lucy Wan is from A.L. “Bert” Lloyd. The song is one of those rare birds in the British Isles tradition which deals with the great taboo of incest, and it does so bluntly and succinctly. The attitude in most parts of our society is still one of hiding and not talking about it as evinced in the very recent BBC decision to cut love scenes from the Australian soap opera "Neighbours" between actors playing a half brother and sister. I remember when I first started singing the song twenty five years ago, a friend who was a social worker—very excited at hearing a song on the subject—telling me that of all the problems he had to deal with, incest was far and away the most common, and any attempt to move discussion into the mainstream is still firmly resisted. The tune is one of the type that Bert favoured, being cast in one of the very unusual modes. I have not the slightest idea where Bert got it, or indeed if he made it up, but I declare that I don't give a toss, because the feel it generates is, for me, unforgettable (sounds like a cue for a song).
Hedy West recorded Lucy Wan in 1967 too for her Topic album Ballads.
Dave Burland sang Lizzie Wan in 1972 on his eponymous Trailer album, Dave Burland.
Whippersnapper (with Dave Swarbrick again) sang Lizzie Wan in 1985 on their album Promises and recorded it live sometime between 1984-1988 for These Foolish Strings.
Frankie Armstrong sang her own version Fair Lizzie in 1997 on her album Till the Grass O'ergrew the Corn. Brian Pearson commented in the liner notes:
Surprisingly—or perhaps not, considering what contemporary research has uncovered—several ballads deal with incest between brother and sister. The Bonny Hill and Sheath and Knife are instances, but Lizie Wan is perhaps the best known. Although it has not been collected very often, Bronson comments that the tunes suggest a continuous and unbroken tradition and speculates that it may be more widespread than we know, being kept close from casual collectors—strangers at best. The tune and some of the words Frankie sings here were collected from Mrs Alice Slayton Sicily of Vermont in 1933. She has stirred them together with an eighteenth century Scottish text (Child A).
John Spiers and Jon Boden recorded Lucy Wan in 2005 on their album Songs and Jon Boden sang it as the July 16, 2010 entry of his project A Folk Song a Day. They commented in their CD notes:
One of a number of songs that Bert Lloyd mysteriously “found”. Traditional versions of the text have been widely collected but Lloyd's haunting Lydian melody is possibly too good to be true. Whatever its parentage it has been lovingly adapted by Martin Carthy and our version owes a good deal to his performance on Byker Hill.
A more recent interpretation is Jim Moray's Lucy Wan on his 2008 CD Low Culture.
Compare to this ballad Child 13, Edward, as sung by Nic Jones on Nic Jones and Steeleye Span on Back in Line.
Lyrics
Martin Carthy sings Lucy Wan
Fair Lucy she sits at her father's door
Weeping and making moan,
And by there come her brother dear,
“What ails thee, Lucy Wan?”
“Oh I ail and I ail, dear brother,” she cries,
“And I'll tell you the reason why:
For there is a child between my two sides
That's from you, dear brother, and I.”
And he's drawn out his good broadsword
That hung low down by his knee,
And he has cutted off poor Lucy Wan's head
And her fair body in three.
And outen then come her thick heart's blood
And outen then come the thin,
And he is away to his mother's house,
“What ails thee, Geordie Wan?”
“Oh what is that blood on the point of your sword?
My son come tell to me.”
“Oh that is the blood of my greyhound,
He would not run for me.”
“But your greyhound's blood it was ne'er so red,
My son come tell to me.”
“Oh that is the blood of my grey mare,
She would not ride with me.”
“But your grey mare's blood it was ne'er so clear,
My son come tell to me.”
“Oh that not the blood of my grey mare
But 'tis the blood of my sister, Lucy.”
“Oh what will you do when you father comes to know?
Son come tell on to me.”
“Oh I will set forth in the bottomless boat
And I will sail the sea.”
“And when will you come back again?
My son come tell to me.”
“When the sun and the moon dance on yonder hill
And that may never be.”
-------------
Spiers & Boden sing Lucy Wan
Fair Lucy she sits in her father's garden
Weeping and making moan,
And by there come her brother dear,
“What ails thee, Lucy Wan?”
“I ail, I ail, dear brother,” she cried,
“And I'll tell you the reason why:
For there is a child between my two sides
That's by you, dear brother, and I.”
He's taken out his long broadsword
That hung low down by his knee,
And he has cut off fair Lucy Wan's head
And her fair body in three.
And outen there come her thick heart's blood
And outen there come the thin,
And he is away to his mother's house,
“What ails thee, Geordie Wan?”
“Oh what's that blood on the wide of your sword?
My son come tell to me.”
“Oh that is the blood of my greyhound,
He would not run for me.”
“Oh, your greyhound's blood was ne'er so clear,
My son come tell to me.”
“Oh that is the blood of my grey mare,
She would not ride for me.”
“Oh your grey mare's blood it was ne'er so red,
My son come tell to me.”
“Oh that not the blood of my grey mare
It's the blood of my sister, Lucy.”
“Oh what will you do when you father comes to know?
My son come tell me.”
“Oh I will set forth in the bottomless boat
And I will sail the sea.”
“And when will you come back again?
My son come tell to me.”
“When the sun and the moon dance on yonder hill
And that may never be.”